Hi all,
> deq := Limit((a^(x+h)-a^x)/h, h = 0); / (x + h) x\ |a - a | deq := lim |-------------| h -> 0 \ h / > deq1 := a^x*(Limit((a^h-1)/h, h = 0)); / / h \\ x | |a - 1|| deq1 := a | lim |------|| \h -> 0 \ h // > f1 := (a^h-1)/h; h a - 1 f1 := ------ h > limit(f1, h = 0); ln(a)
I need to prove the last line for the constant "a" beiing any reals positive
Mario
l'Hospital
How did I missed that?
circular argument
To "prove" that lim(f1,h=0)=ln(a) using l'Hospital is a circular argument.
To apply l'Hospital, you need to know how to find diff(a^x,x) at x=0. But to do this, you ultimately need to know lim(f1,h=0)=ln(a)!
So invoking l'Hospital is not a proof at all.
hm ... ahem ... agreed, but ...
yes, but
What you write is correct. You use the fact that diff(exp(u),u)=exp(u), together with the chain rule.
When you write out the difference quotient for this derivative of exp(u), you find that you need to know
limit(dq,h=0) where dq=(exp(h)-1)/h. This is a special case of the limit in question, when a=e.
The fact that this is equal to 1 is essentially the definition of the number e.
ok
yes, that's what I used in the above
but can not remember the prove of ( exp(x) )' = exp(x)
think, it depends a bit on the defintions used, the easiest might be as analytic function, i.e. series
After a good night sleep...
I realise that effectively, it was a circular demonstration and it was the reason why I did not used Hospital's Rule in the first place. So the problem is still open! Thanks Alex for pointing that out.
Less circular
Any 'proof' needs to somehow introduce ln(a) in a non-artificial way. Using derivatives, as Alex points out, is not the way.
However, we know that
. If we expand that exp into a series to 2 terms, we get
. Now we're nearly there! Plug that in to the limit expression and we get
maybe
This used derivatives of exp. Maybe that's "legal" here, it might depend on one's view of what's allowed when introducing ln(a).
Instead of defining ln as inverse of exp, mabe use the integral defn for ln(a). See, eg. Spivak who brings in ln prior to introducing exp. What about re-expressing that integral as a Riemann sum (as h->0)? Does that limiting sum collapse down to the desired statement?
Could you post again Jacques
because we cannot see the exponent that you want to expand.
Missing piece
Stupid <maple> tag. The missing equation says a^h = exp(h*ln(a)).
The proof for a^x is the same for exp(x)
in both case, you have to prove:
The liimit is 1. But you have the result by the Hospital's Rule, wich you cannot do since it's what you are trying to prove.
While the limit is ln(a) by again using the Hospital's Rule.
For the moment, all I have to illustrate that the limit is ln(a) is to use the spreadsheet and show that the limit tend to be, for a = 5 for example, ln(5). Of course, I would like a precises theoriticall.
And more over, to find the derivative of ln(x)
you will run in the same problem:
Is ther someone have an answer for me...?
Proof: More Info Needed
What you will accept as a proof depends on what you already know.
As has already been pointed out, using l'Hopital's Rule is suspect because that presumes knowledge of the derivative of a^x, or exp(x). There are ways to get this using other facts, e.g., series and inverse function. But, this brings in more questions about what is proven and what is accepted fact for working problems.
Can you provide us with some additional background for your question?
I assume it's for an assignment you have been given. For what course? What do you know from previous courses? Can you provide any similar problems (or examples) that would illuminate us on the general level of your course?
Lastly, your initial post asked for a "proof using Maple". What does this mean, exactly? Do you simply want to verify the calculations at each step? Or, might a "graphical proof" be acceptable?
Doug
3 variants
Here is more info
My goal, in teaching a first course of calculus, is to be able to calculate the derivative of the function a^x , ln(x) and sin(x) with the definition:
First, I show that:
with a list that give the value of the limit as h approche 0. I don't know any other way to demonstrate.
Then I look for a^x
I show that for a = 2, the limit is 0.6931 and that for a = 3, the limit is 1.0986. So is there a function that the derivative is the function of herselft. So we look at:
and the solution is a = e. But for a different value of a, I am stuck with:
Then I go with :
a = 2 in deq2 give 0.6931471806*2^x = ln(2)*2^x
a = 3 in deq2 give 1.098612289*3^x = ln(3)*3^x
And so on and I deduct that the result is in general: I am not very please with that way of proving this. So for now, I have show that
Of course, I could use the following
But to do that, I need to know the derivative of ln(x)
> Diff(Log[a](x), x) = Limit((log[a](x+h)-log[a](x))/h, h = 0); /ln(x + h) ln(x)\ |--------- - -----| d | ln(a) ln(a)| --- Log[a](x) = lim |-----------------| dx h -> 0 \ h /
/ /x + h\\
|ln|-----||
/ln(x + h) ln(x)\ | \ x /|
|--------- - -----| lim |---------|
| ln(a) ln(a)| h -> 0 \ h /
lim |-----------------| = ------------------
h -> 0 \ h / ln(a)
and
/ /x + h\\
|ln|-----||
| \ x /| 1
lim |---------| = -
h -> 0 \ h / x
wich I have to prove again. I have a nice way for doing so:
Multiplying and dividing the last output and setting Delta;x/x
= alpha we have
then
And I prove the same way that
and that, with a Table;
So I want to find the derivative of thoses 3 functions knowing only the derivative of x^n, the sum (minus) rule, the multipication rule, the quotient rule and the chain rule.
Is doing so, only with table of numbers, am I prooving something? Does anyone have a beautyfull way to go?
Thanks in advance
what are your definitions for the functions?
What are your definitions for the functions a^x , ln(x) and sin(x)?
"So I want to find the derivative of thoses 3 functions knowing only the derivative of x^n, the sum (minus) rule, the multipication rule, the quotient rule and the chain rule."
That sounds, as if you want to work on them as power series (+usual elementary diff properties).
Not as a series
All I want to do is construct the rule of differenting the functions all with the formula
So I find the rule for x^n. Then I establish the sum (minus) rule, the multipication rule, the quotient rule.
Then I show that the definition of "e" is
Then knowing that:
y = a^x and log[a](y) = x
find the derivative of both function with the definitions that I have establish and with the formula of the beginning.
As for sin(x), the student know that it's a periodic function F(x) = F(x + 2*Pi). And then we construct the rule of derivative for cos(x), tan(x) and so on....
And finally the chain rule and l'Hospital's rule. So now they have all they need to find the derivative of every kind of functions.
So you see that the derivative of a^x, ln(x) and sin(x) are the functions that I want to prove without using table of the fucntion while h tend to zero and I cannot use a series because it implie that I know the derivative of the fuction we are looking for.
I hope this will help you.
ok
Ok, it will ever be a matter of taste how to proceed, depending
on embedding and intention. And mine today would be not too much
puristic, something like done in Forster (how was/is with complex
Analysis) is fine for me.
Quickly introducing power series and exp is not so difficult and
the sketch of 2) or 3) above gives the derivative without much
pain.
Since monotony is evident you get log and after knowing you can
differentiate here its rule comes by 1 = (exp(log(x))' = x*log(x)'
by chain rule - or generally for differentiating an inverse.
However at some point one has to the work: he defines sin and cos
through exp(I*x) (yes, 1st semester), so the usual geometric view
has to be proven (no, not complex log, that is later and something
like in Cartan seems natural then).
More or less he quickly goes off the basic definition for f' and
one has the impression these lectures intend to enable physicist
quickly with their needs.
PS: the only book written by him that I do not like much is his
'Riemannian Surfaces'. It is quite 'dry' to read. The best I had
where notes on diff Geometry (Hodge stuff) in Italian, since he
wanted to examine that theme for PhD and it was easier to use
them than reading books.
Hm ... do you have now what you need or is something missing?
I lost the overview a bit ...
My suggestion
When I studied that in high school, it was done as follows. First, few plots y=2^x, y=3^x, y=4^x etc. were plotted, together with their tangents at 0, and one could see visually that the slope, i.e. the derivative of y=2^x at 0 is less than 1, and the derivative of y=4^x at 0 is greater than 1. Then, one can prove that if the derivative of y=b^x (with b>0) at 0 is c, then the derivative of y=b^(kx) at 0 is kc (by substituting kh instead of h in the limit for the derivative of y=b^x at 0.)
If c<>0. for k=1/c that gives the derivative 1 at 0. That can be used as a definition of e as the unique positive number such that the derivative of e^x at 0 is 1.
Now, for b=e, the derivative of e^(kx) at 0 is k, and since a=e^(ln a), that gives the value ln(a) for the derivative of y=a^x at 0.
Alec
Dear Alec!
Thank you for your encouraging word.
I have been teaching Calculus for a while now. But I have to follow a certain order. Here, the students have 2 years wich give 4 semesters (of 4 month each)
1- differential calculus
2- integral calculus
3- probality and statistic
4- linear algebra (including complex numbers)
2, 3 and 4 is a piece of cake because they have the right background (1). My goal was to find a way to use the formula for most of the time:
Calculus is difficult (even differentiating powers)
Mario,
I'm not going to touch Alec's comments, but I do want to add my support to ALEX's comments. It's not realistic to give a "rigorous but simple foundation of the derivative of functions". Even powers, x^n, can be problematic. Integer powers, including negative integers, are not difficult. Rational powers can be handled without too much trouble. But, irrational powers are a different story. Think about it, what do you mean when you write x^(sqrt(2)).
How do you compute this for a specific value of x, say x=2, other than using a computational device?
The standard answer is to write it using exponentials and logarithms: x^sqrt(2) = exp(sqrt(2)*ln(x)). So, even the derivative of powers needs to use exponentials and logarithms.
It's not necessary to have a complete mastery of all of the details of these arguments to appreciate the complexity of the issues. These difficulties do not need to be an obstacle to the learning of the main concepts of calculus. You do not have to be dishonest with the students; I just tell them that if they are intrigued by these issues they should consider taking higher-level MATH courses.
Many people underestimate the complexity of this matter. It does not disqualify anyone from being an effective educator. I think you'll find people on MaplePrimes willing to help you better understand the issues at hand, if you are interested.
Doug
Thanks a lot